Not only is Barry Fleming a liar and a closet Democrat, he’s not even a Christian.
At least, that’s what Paul Broun said today during a Georgia Public Broadcasting interview.
“It’s unfortunate that he doesn’t understand redemption and salvation and a changed life in accepting Jesus as lord and savior,” Broun said on WACG 90.7 FM in Augusta. “It’s not about religion but about a relationship with Jesus.”
“Paul is wrong on that,” Fleming replied in an interview scheduled to air Friday. “My Christian faith is the center of my life and I’ve tried not only to witness to other people in my life but I’ve tried to live a life as an example for others, and I’ll continue to do that.”
Broun often says Fleming is “bearing false witness” by attacking him, and credits God, not the voters of the Tenth District, with installing him in Congress. And you may recall that Broun’s wife Niki questioned Jim Whitehead’s Christian credentials in an e-mail that found its way onto the blogs last year. But if this doesn’t beat all, I don’t know what does.
Fleming stopped by the newsroom Wednesday and actually told me a very similar story. Prior to the recent GPB debate, Fleming said he held out his hand for Broun to shake, and Broun leaned over and told Fleming he was praying for him. Fleming said thanks, I’m praying for you to. Then Broun asked Fleming, who is a deacon at Harlem Baptist Church, if he’d accepted Jesus.
My favorite part of the story I linked to is the last graf – Broun bragging about converting an ex-wife over the phone.
I think all this negative campaigning is starting to wear on these guys. I spoke to Broun on Wednesday and he sound tired, cranky and sick of repeating his talking points. But it’ll all be over soon. We’ll be glad for a few days … and then we’ll start to miss the action.
Oh, and here’s an overview of the race in Politico, a D.C. newspaper.
Barrow = Bush
Jon Flack has a post on state Rep. Regina Thomas’ advertisement calling John Barrah President Bush’s rubber stamp for his votes on the war, FISA, etc.
Welcome to the club, Ms. Thomas. We’ve know that for years here in Athens.
Nice hat, by the way.
I’m hearing that the former A-CC commissioner has a problem on his hands. Thomas is not well-known outside Savannah, but 90 percent of the Democratic voters in the 12th District are black, as is Thomas. Barrow had good relations with the black community in Athens, though, plus Thomas is virtually broke. I think he’ll end up doing fine.
There’s been a lot of hand-wringing in Democratic circles that if Thomas wins, the random Republican running against her will win. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. It’s a D +2 district, Barack Obama will have some pretty long coattails, none of the Republicans are Max Burns material and the GOP is more focused on ousting Jim Marshall.
Yes we can (have a threesome)!
I attended a meeting at East Friendship Baptist Church and finally got my hands on the infamous Vernon Jones mailer that shows him badly Photoshopped next to Obama. Apparently Obama is the only Democrat who is not a loser. If Bush was running again, what would Jones do?
While in Atlanta Tuesday, Obama slapped Jones over the misleading flyer. It was in the AJC but I can’t find the link now.
That flyer, billboards on 441 in the decidedly whitebread Republican bastions of Oconee and Jackson counties and a fan Rosa Thurmond was holding are the only signs of the Jones campaign I’ve seen in Athens.
An unusually lucid Keith Johnson told me he plans on voting for Rand Knight.
- Blake Aued's blog
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I am a Christian, but I
I am a Christian, but I don't understand the kind of faith that Broun claims - it's just not the kind of Christianity I practice. His views on religion actually scare me, and I'd really encourage him to read Mark. Or Luke. Or Matthew. Or John...
Is there more than
one kind of Christianity?
Yes there are
Catholic, Protestant (in all its various forms — Episcopal, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, ect.) Greek Orthodox are all variations of the same principles.
That's far far lower than anything Barry has said
Wow. What would Jesus do?
First off, I highly doubt he'd get himself involved in something as inherently pointless as politics. If he did, he'd probably get steamrolled by the Republican attack machine on things such as non-violence, not being judgmental, and helping the poor. Then again, his humility would probably irk self-righteous Democrats. Plus, being the son of a carpenter doesn't really sound like you're typical ivy-league educated, Prius driving, Democrat.
But for anyone to question the faith and Christian credentials of another is atrocious and sickening. Perhaps if Congressman Broun opened up that bible of his he would see that he should "remove the beam from his own eye before removing the splinter from the eye of his neighbor".
Annoyed Dawg, I'm in the same camp. I don't know what kind of faith it is... its quite unnerving actually... which is why I intend to vote against him.
I guess his perception that he was divinely appointed is what leads to the smug sense of arrogance he tends to carry around at appearances. I certainly know its not intelligence... because at every function I've gone to, he's been the stupidest one in the room. By far.
I know I've attacked Broun on here mercilessly, many of you may have thought its without warrant or reason. This is a new low for Congressman Broun and a new low for local politics. I know that its been done before by their camp (with Niki's infamous e-mail a year ago). I don't think this kind of accusation by Broun represents true Christian character and it shows that the Broun campaign may be a bit more worried about Fleming than they let on with their poll numbers.
I think its time for Paul Broun to get the ole heave-ho. Maybe in his free time, he can actually read those things he calls a Bible and a Constitution.
You are missing the point
Barry Fleming put his faith in issue by attacking Dr. Broun based what happened in his private life nearly three decades ago. Christians are supposed to understand and be open to the idea of personal redemption and salvation, and clearly Dr. Broun has led a changed life since he accepted Christ as his lord and savior. Rep. Fleming claims that what happened nearly thirty years ago leaves a dark cloud over Dr. Broun's life. Apparently, Rep. Fleming doesn't understand the cleansing power of Jesus' blood.
Christians are not to be naive -- "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves." (Matt. 10:16) -- but to suggest that personal mistakes from so long ago would influence Dr. Broun's future judgment is beyond the pale. Dr. Broun's question to Rep. Fleming is perfectly legitimate. But I don't expect non-evangelicals to understand.
Dr. Broun has made a conscious decision not to run a negative campaign, and I applaud him for it. He has, of course, been forced to respond to all the attacks from the Fleming camp.
On the other side, Rep. Fleming has given us no compelling reason to vote for him. Sure, he's been Speaker Richardson's majority whip--but is that a good thing?
Woah woah woah. Dr. Broun
Woah woah woah. Dr. Broun isn't running a negative campaign? He just said Barry Fleming isn't a Christian... thats far more negative than Fleming's questioning of Broun's voting record.
My understanding of God is that he loves us equally irregardless of our shortcomings or our achievements. Moreover, when he died upon the cross, he died for the sins of ALL MANKIND not just those who "accept" him. Be you Hindu, Baptist, Atheist, Muslim, Catholic, or whatever Christ is everyone's Savior. To claim him as your own is quite the selfish assertion of Dr. Broun.
Perhaps his most arrogant assertion is that he is a better Christian than Barry Fleming (and Jim Whitehead in 2007). One's faith is not a contest, nor should it ever be. Dr. Broun sounds like the pharisee in the temple, loudly boasting of his faith and good deeds. Humility is obviously a gift that Dr. Broun has yet to learn.
A true Christian wouldn't make a show of their faith... nor would they try to make it some sort of competition as to who can be the better Christian. After hearing the things that he has said recently on the radio... knowing the details of his past (even after his "conversion" in 1986)... and his constant boasting about the "great" Christian he is... I'm here to say that Paul Broun is just another pharisee... looking for power and public approval.
We don't need an arrogant and pompous individual gratifying themselves by walking the halls of the Capitol. Vote Fleming.
I wouldn't expect you to understand
Dr. Broun didn't say Barry Fleming wasn't a Christian. Only Rep. Fleming and the Lord know whether he is a Christian or not. Rather, Dr. Broun said: "It's unfortunate that [Fleming] doesn't understand redemption and salvation and a changed life in accepting Jesus as lord and savior." That statement is an apparent fact, based upon Rep. Fleming's personal attacks on Dr. Broun.
You are obviously not an evangelical Christian. Evangelicals stress a personal relationship with Christ. It is not in any respect selfish to claim Christ as one's own personal lord and savior. It is our duty as Christians under the Great Commission to spread the Gospel and to lead others to a saving relationship with Christ Jesus.
There is nothing shameful in Dr. Broun sharing his testimony. As it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord"! (1 Cor. 1:31).
The readers on this board may think both Dr. Broun and his supporters are "religious nutcases" for our sincere beliefs, but I wouldn't expect you to understand.
Luke 18: 9-14 The Parable of
Luke 18: 9-14 The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
The issue is the content of the heart as one prays. The parable is one of contrast and is unique to Luke. It contains common Lukan heroes and villains. The hero is the tax collector; the villain is the Pharisee. Humility is the exalted virtue. The parable serves as a rebuke, since it is told to some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else.
What is most dangerous about pride is noted right at the start. First, we come to trust in our own abilities rather than trusting God. Second, we come to regard other people with contempt and disrespect rather than seeing them as created equal in the image of God. Here we are reminded, however, that God honors those who realize that their ministry does not commend them before God or make them superior; rather, we are all the objects of his grace and mercy.
The parable takes place at Israel's most holy site, the temple. The two visitors are on opposite ends of the social spectrum. The Pharisee is a respected religious member in a most honored social group, while the tax collector belongs to one of the most hated professions possible for a Jew.
The two prayers also make a contrast. The Pharisee is sure that he is a blessing to God: "I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get." Clearly, God's program could hardly advance without this man's contribution. In fact, his prayer's form is revealing. It starts out like a thanksgiving psalm in which God is praised for something he has done. But the form is perverted, since the occasion of thanksgiving is what the man has done for God. Here is trust in oneself. His real prayer is "God, I thank you that I am so marvelous." In his own "humble" eyes he is not unrighteous. He fasts above and beyond the call of duty, twice a week, in contrast to the one fast a year on the Day of Atonement required of Jews. He gives tithes from everything (Lev 27:30-32; Num 18:21-24; Deut 14:22-27). He probably tithes down to the smallest herbs (Lk 11:42). God needs to do nothing for him. He makes no request of God, he offers no honor to God. This religious man has done it all. After reading his prayer, we wonder whether God should apply to be his assistant!
In contrast, the tax collector senses that he approaches a holy God, a great and unique being. This man comes with timidity, from a distance, not lifting his eyes to heaven. While the Pharisee had stood right at the front and addressed God, the tax collector beats his breast in an obscure corner to reflect his contrition. A similar sign of emotional dependence in the New Testament is the lifting of hands to God to show one's need of what he provides (1 Tim 2:8). Both practices indicate an awareness of one's humble position before God.
The tax collector knows he is a sinner; the Pharisee is confident of his own righteousness. The contrast could not be greater. Here is another brilliant use of literary space and contrast by Jesus.
The tax collector asks for mercy. He desires to improve his spiritual health, not rest on any personal laurels. He is aware that the only way he has access to God is through divine mercy (Dan 9:18-19). Such access is not earned; it is the product of God's grace.
When Jesus evaluates the two prayers, only one petitioner went home justified. The tax collector's prayer honored God and was heard, not that of the Pharisee. To drive the point home, Jesus concludes, "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Such reversals in God's judgments are common (1:51-53; 6:20-26; 14:11; 15:11-32; 16:19-31). The parable's point is summarized in this saying. The tax collector has a humble heart. He is honored by God. Since this parable is an example story, the call is to be like the tax collector.
Broun's recent behavior and track record of boasting in his actions are very much like the pharisee in the parable. He exalts himself as THE Christian candidate... THE one with moral guidance... and THE one with a real understanding of God. His claims that he is divinely appointed to serve this district and his more than apparent belief that God has made him better than everyone else are all indicative of the pharisee's behavior.
While the tax collector (Fleming in this case... only more ironic that he's a "liberal trial lawyer), hasn't made a show of his faith. Fleming hasn't overtly boasted of how "great" or "morally superior" he is. Fleming doesn't look down his nose at anyone, and from the conversations I've had with him, he seems very humble as to who he is and where he comes from.
Dr. Broun couldn't stand in starker contrast.
Bringing up Broun's personal past may be low in the political realm, they're interesting assertions to look at... especially for someone being appointed to spend our tax dollars. Although its important to note that these allegations are the tip of an iceberg of sleeze that has been Dr. Broun's personal life (and things that have taken place far more recently).
I think I understand ramblindawg.
Actually all politicians
Actually all politicians talk up their actions; and with good reason! Their constituents want to know what they are doing. Likewise, Rep. Fleming boasts of his previous experience.
Further, Dr. Broun was divinely appointed to serve this district. (See Rom. 13:1-7; the governing authority is established by God.) The circumstances of Dr. Broun's unlikely victory last year also arguably demonstrate divine intervention (if anyone were to believe in such an illogical thing...).
I agree that Rep. Fleming hasn't made a show of his faith, and that's perfectly fine. But he hasn't given me any reason to vote for him other than "we need a change." I don't think we need a change from Dr. Broun as he is representing this district ably and with deep convictions.
Heck, as Barry tells us over and over again, Dr. Broun will vote his convictions even if they lead him to be portrayed as supporting child pornographers or marijuana users.
Sadly, you and other Fleming supporters continue to bring up rumor--"tip of an iceberg of sleeze." I haven't seen coming that from the Broun camp, and I doubt Fleming has lived a perfect life. None of us has.
And I also see that Dr. Broun's Wikipedia entry has been vandalized numerous times. I don't know who is doing it, but it is despicable.
Yes, politicians do talk up
Yes, politicians do talk up their actions and accomplishments. In regard to actions and accomplishments Fleming easily defeats Broun... seeing as Fleming has actually done things.
My qualm is not in a politician talking up their achievements in public office... its what they're supposed to do.
My problem is that Broun doesn't talk up his political accomplishments (partially because he doesn't have any). Paul Broun spends a majority of his time talking up his moral and spiritual superiority to Barry Fleming. Thats what disgusts me...
Again ramblindawg, Broun is trying to make a competition out of faith. I'm not even totally convinced by it.
I'm sorry, but this isn't
I'm sorry, but this isn't 16th Century Europe. There is no divine right of kings or congressmen. This is a democracy. You can believe that God intervenes in elections if you like, but I saw Paul Broun work his butt off to get elected, and I saw Nancy Pelosi swear him in, not the Pope.
And if evangelicals don't judge what's in our hearts, why did Broun presume to judge what's in Fleming's?
I was wondering if anyone
I was wondering if anyone was going to point out the divine thing.
But now you must wonder, if God does divinely appoint candidates to office, do you think he reads our coverage and endorsements?? Because if he doesn't, why the heck do we bother??
God has already endorsed
God has already endorsed Cynthia McKinney for President, Blake Aued for mayor, Rand Knight for Senate, and Jacob Durden for Congress.
Holy presidential nominations, Batman!
I think you might be right ...
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/12/mckinney-wins-green-party-nomina...
If you don't believe that
If you don't believe that God has the power to intervene in human affairs, that's perfectly fine. Some people just don't "get" all that Christian stuff. "In God We Trust" is a pleasant saying, but no one REALLY believes that stuff, right?
FYI, Dr. Broun is a Baptist, and Baptists don't have Popes.
Although this seems lost on all of you, Dr. Broun didn't judge Rep. Fleming -- he merely pointed out that Rep. Fleming is rejecting Dr. Broun's Christian testimony of a changed life.
No, Dr. Broun judged Barry
No, Dr. Broun judged Barry Fleming. Its pretty blatent in the tone of the comment and the story which Barry relayed to Blake. Paul Broun feels morally superior to Barry Fleming and has obviously deemed Barry a lesser person and a weaker Christian than he.
If you couldn't pick up on the tone of that interview I suggest you buy some q-tips and clean the wax out of your ears.
I get the Christian stuff... I love my God and my God loves me. However, I am of the thought that God doesn't intervene in menial human affairs.
To say that God comes in and decides an election based upon who is the better Christian is as much nonsense as saying that he determines who wins a football game (if that were the case Notre Dame wouldn't stink so bad).
God loves us all... He cares for us all, but by no means does he divinely appoint anyone Congress. If politics were the realm of good politicians chosen by God, what would have become of JFK's adulterous self? What about Ronald Reagan who abhorred going to church (but only did so out of Nancy's urging and its electoral viability). Why isn't Mike Huckabee winning the Presidential election? Why is Larry Craig sitting in the United States Senate.
God gives us free will. The free will to vote for whomever we choose. The free will to state that you want to "blow up Athens" and then proceed to lose an election. The free will to call someone out for being less of a Christian than you.
You know what, maybe I don't "get" the Christian stuff. Because your Christian stuff sounds a bit different than the Christ that I know. Last time I heard your "Christian stuff" it was in the guise of people telling my that the murder of my friend Eve Carson was "Gods will". Last time I heard your "Christian stuff" it was Pat Robertson saying that God was punishing the people of New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina.
In all honesty ramblindawg... if thats the "Christian stuff" that you and Paul Broun know and love, then I wish Christ were here to drive your "stuff" out of the temple.
Wow, I've really caused you
Wow, I've really caused you to get all philosophical, kandrew. From your statements, you think there's no need for faith in Jesus or prayer. Maybe that is the root of your contempt for Dr. Broun?
IMHO, Rep. Fleming's relentless personal attacks on Dr. Broun does tell us something about Rep. Fleming's moral character.
Ramblindawg... I'm a devout
Ramblindawg... I'm a devout Catholic. I go to Mass every Sunday (sometimes daily Mass when I can roll out of bed early enough in the morning). I go to Confession monthly and I believe very, very strongly in the power of prayer.
There is very much a need for faith in Jesus and for prayer. Doing so brings to a closer understanding with God and helps us try to model ourselves in His image. (I know this is a political blog so I'll keep the religious theory to a minimum).
The problem I have is that Paul Broun makes an pretentious show of his faith. I am very much a believer that one should be humble in their love for God and not make proud boasts of their own personal greatness (i.e. the pharisee).
Moreover, I believe that God gives us free will. That's what decides the outcome of elections, football games, "reality" tv shows, etc. (okay, maybe not reality tv). We all have the free range to choose what we want to do in life, whether we want to follow God or turn away from God... pretty simple, hope you're sticking with me here.
Paul Broun, turns that idea on its ear. Saying that God has some sort of divine plan that he be our Congressman. That God is willing to circumvent man's free will to appoint a puttering putz to be our Congressman. You see God cares so much about the 10th district... that he'd rather interrupt free will to make sure Broun wins than interrupt free will to say... prevent a war.
Not only is it pompous and presumptuous, but its wrong. As Mike Huckabee would say, if Jesus were around today, he sure as heck wouldn't be into politics. Trust me, God is too busy showering all of us (Christians and non-Christians alike) in His infinite love to waste His time on something as petty and trivial in the grand scheme of things as politics.
Then again... according to Broun, God doesn't bless America... and won't... until we stop performing abortions.
Paul Broun represents everything that turns people off to Christianity. An inflated sense of self, an attitude of moral superiority, a disdain for those of other faiths or who you feel are morally inferior, and a general attitude that everyone need be converted or face eternal damnation.
I don't see my God that way. I see my God who welcome any of His children into heaven... regardless of creed... so long as they have lived a good life. If you see it differently, that's your right... your free will to chose how to interpret God. He loves you for it and I love you for it.
"I don't always know the right thing to do, Lord, but I believe that the desire to please you, does in fact please you." ~ Thomas Merton (Thoughts on Solitude)
We aren't perfect... we'll never be perfect... Broun seems to insinuate that since his "conversion" he has led the perfect life.
Evangelical Christians
Evangelical Christians believe one is saved by faith alone, and not by good works or going to church every Sunday. Since you and Dr. Broun do not share the same faith, I wouldn't expect you to understand his personal faith.
I don't know what fact led you to become such a dedicated Fleming supporter, but your passion on the religious aspect makes me think you just don't like politicians who are sincere evangelical Christians.
I'm a Fleming supporter
I'm a Fleming supporter because I know that Barry has been a leader in the Georgia General Assembly. He's helped lead a growing state into a bright new future. He's helped to balance a budget (something I would love for him to be able to bring to DC). He's brought 2 billion dollars in tax cuts (something I would love to see him bring to DC). He's brought laws which crack down on child predators (unlike Broun). He's brought the toughest immigration laws in the country. He's proposed solutions and ideas for our energy crisis (unlike Broun; simply says moronic things about grits).
I'm a Fleming supporter because he's someone who has shown that he can get the job done in Atlanta. He's someone who wants to bring some common sense to Washington DC. Unlike his opponent, who can't even fight to save the Campbell Center... and so severely lacks common sense he's known around DC as "that crazy guy from Georgia". I'm also sure that Saxby Chambliss would appreciate having Broun out of DC... so Saxby doesn't have to waste his time picking up for Broun because Paul can't do his job.
I'm a Fleming supporter because I'm disappointed in the job Broun has done in DC. He hasn't done his job and its time for a real positive change in this district. A positive change that is represented by Barry Fleming. Not Paul Broun.
I have no theological qualms with Broun or with you. I'm finding that you seem to be antagonistic towards me, claiming that "I don't understand". I feel that Broun's religion nor Fleming's religion should be what is at issue in this election. It should be their competency to handle the issues that stand to face this district and this nation in DC. In that case, Fleming is by far the best for the 10th district.
Sorry to get all facty here,
Sorry to get all facty here, but ...
No congressman reads every bill. It would be impossible. They can be thousands of pages long.
And Fleming doesn't deserve a whole lot of credit for balancing the state's budget because the Georgia constitution requires a balanced budget. The U.S. Constitution does not.
Cross my heart,
I didn't see Blake's post when I made my post to the same effect.
So help me God, which ever version you follow.
P.S.
It's really hard to figure out when Blake made his post because of the out of synch ABH clock. ABH being out of synch with the rest of the world is just too perfect a straight line to pick up and run with it.
Anyway, my little cheap ass second hand antique laptop can automatically synchronize itself. You would think a well funded organization like the ABH with state of the art data processing equipment and a whole staff of IT people who are smart enough to put annoying ads all over the front page could figure out how to move the clock forwards or backwards an hour.
Whole staff of IT people (in
Whole staff of IT people (in Athens) = 2
Staff at MDW (in Augusta) = God knows how many there are there and no one here really knows what they do.
But you have a helicopter
But you have a helicopter pad and groovy art collection ....so.....you're cool. Not really.
Have you actually been to
Have you actually been to our art museum in Augusta?? I went there for a wedding once ... I wasn't impressed either, but I did only see like two rooms at the place.
Hate to break up the
Hate to break up the discussion on art here...
Blake, in response to to your comment about Barry and the budget. As majority whip, he's one of the guys in helping to decide what we can spend money on and how much we can spend (along with the speaker, the folks at appropriations, the guv, etc.). That position in the state house relies on your ability to work with others to obtain solutions. I'd much rather have someone who knows how to craft legislation, create working compromises, and ensure that things get done for this district. You can certainly argue that we don't have that now in Paul Broun.
So is Fleming responsible for the sweeping tax reform bill from
last year's legislature?
I'd much rather have someone who knows how to craft legislation, create working compromises, and ensure that things get done for this district.
Obviously you are referring to his buddy, Glenn Richardson's, tax reform bill. Is Fleming taking credit for drafting that, and working out all the compromises to get it passed?
Or not as the case may be.
Funny how no one ever takes credit for the really bad ideas.
You bring up a valid
You bring up a valid point... and its one that I considered when deciding who to vote for. However, I'm not going to pin the lack of tax reform in this last session solely on Barry Fleming.
The reason the GREAT tax failed had more to do with Glenn Richardson than anyone else. After kicking people out of committee positions and offices for not supporting his lackey's appointment to the DOT, starting public fights with the Lt. Governor, ruling the house like a despot, and being completely unflinching on yielding any part of the GREAT plan... that idea was doomed to fail.
It's hard to create compromise when Richardson won't let go of any aspect of his tax plan. I think that there's a large number of individuals in the General Assembly who wanted and still want meaningful tax reform.
deafening silence-
I'm not pinning the lack of tax reform on Barry Fleming any more than I'm giving him credit for passing a balance budget.
The State of Georgia was passing balanced budgets when Barry was still a gleam in his daddy's eye.
Although, I don't if Fleming is the "great compromiser", I don't recall him identifying the speaker as being unwilling to compromise on the tax plan. I don't remember Fleming presenting an alternative tax plan. What I recall is that Fleming, as majority whip (a position appointed by the speaker) was pretty much in lockstep with speaker.
And from all the stories I
And from all the stories I read this past session, if you weren't in lockstep with Richardson you paid the price.
If the waters on Lake Lanier
If the waters on Lake Lanier recede any more we might find all those legislators, staffers, media types, and lobbyists Richardson has sent to "swim with the fishes"
God may know
God may know the contents of Paul Broun's heart, but the voters of the 10th district need more objective measures. Dr. Broun insistence that his testimony is proof that all of his past misdeeds are behind him is nothing more than vain.
Um, perhaps the fact that
Um, perhaps the fact that the "past misdeeds" Rep. Fleming is calling attention to were nearly THIRTY years ago counts for something?
They were 30 years ago...
They were 30 years ago... but at least they're factual. Unlike Paul Broun, when Barry Fleming has brought up personal details of Broun's past misdeeds, they've been rooted in things that have actually happened.
Plus, it concerns me if the guy I'm appointing to spend my tax dollars couldn't pay his taxes on time, couldn't pay child support, and falsified documents to obtain a loan. I think thats quite pertinent to me as a voter who wants to be able to trust who I'm sending my money to.
Yes, Broun may have come a long way since then, and he should be commended for cleaning his life up.
Broun's attacks on Fleming... and believe me, they are attacks (no matter how much Paul Broun says he runs a "positive campaign")... are based more in outright lies or the attempt to conjure up negative stereotypes and spook the people of the 10th to voting his way.
Paul has said that Fleming is a "liberal trial lawyer" no doubt an attempt to convince the people of district 10 that everything out of Barry's mouth will be an out and out lie. Moreover that Fleming is driven more out of ambition than any concern for the district.
In reality, I think Fleming has the public on his mind more than Broun does. I mean Barry is the one who is content with serving as county commissioner and state rep... showing that he does care for Augusta and Columbia County. If he doesn't win this election I'm sure he'll go back to trying to serve the people... from talking with him, you get the sense that he feels like he's trying to help the people of the district.
Broun on the other hand... only runs on the big stages. 1990 - ran for Congress... big fat loss. 1992 - ran for Congress... big fat loss. 1996 - ran for the US Senate (a step up! way to go Paul!)... bigger fatter loss. Someone who really cared about serving others... as opposed to their own selfish ego would have run for school board, county commission, or any other position where he felt he could be of service to the people (Although, given the ineptitude I've seen out of him on Capitol Hill, maybe we'd be better served if he sat at home).
Broun's assertion that Fleming isn't as real a Christian as he... is something not based in fact at all. Barry is a deacon and the Harlem Baptist Church and serves his community there whenever they need him... not something a "heathen" like Barry would do. Again, Broun throws punches that don't have fact or reason behind them (although fact and reason have never been his strong suit) as a result, Broun comes off as the most vile character of them all.
Evangelical Christians like
Evangelical Christians like Dr. Broun must drive kandrew crazy, hence these lengthy screeds repeating all of the Fleming camp's talking points.
Rep. Fleming's career as a trial lawyer is very relevant. I'd rather send a physician to fix the problems in Washington than a trial lawyer, even though Rep. Fleming and I are graduates of the same law school.
Since you mentioned Harlem Baptist Church, I'll point out that it is aligned with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a liberal Baptist splinter group. I've never been there, so I don't know why they aligned with the CBF, but dually aligned congregations typically disagree with the Southern Baptist Convention on biblical inerrancy, women pastors, teh gayz, etc.
Furthermore, I see that Rep. Fleming is even on the "coordinating council" of the CBF, so I would not be surprised if he personally holds a liberal view of Christian theology.
What exactly makes a
What exactly makes a physician capable of fixing the problems in Washington? Does his knowledge of how ibuprofen affects the body lend him to have any insight onto how tax law works? By the way, Georgia's largest association of medical professionals endorsed Fleming... over a doctor!!! Tells you what they think of Paul Broun, their fellow physician.
Meanwhile a lawyer, someone who studies and interprets the laws... practices the laws... might have a better insight on how to write the laws and how to interpret the laws.
This is actually supported by Broun's statement that he doesn't read every bill that crosses his desk. The very minuscule understanding of how laws (or government) works he has showcased leads me to believe that we might need a lawyer in DC instead of a doctor without a very positive reputation in the medical community.
Wow... I'm so shocked to learn that Harlem Baptist Church is aligned with a liberal Baptist splinter group. I'm so sorry that they disagree with the Southern Baptist Convention. Not being a baptist, could you please enlighten me as to why there are liberal Baptist groups and conservative Baptist groups? Or why the church needs to be politicized?
I think your final statements are nothing but the same tired attacks which Broun has been trying to level on Fleming the past couple weeks. It's sad that a supposed graduate of the University of Georgia law school is totally unable to respond to, and refute, my points. I'm sorry that all you've got are baseless and pointless attacks... but that is all Broun has well.
Makes me incredibly glad that I'm going somewhere else for law school.
I don't need to respond to
I don't need to respond to all your points - I don't work for the Broun campaign. What I know is that Dr. Broun is a genuine, faithful person who stands for conservative ideals uncompromisingly, and that's why I was motivated to respond to the attack on his faith, which was represented here as an attack on Rep. Fleming's faith.
Some points I saw in your other posts:
o You say Dr. Broun previously held a pro-choice position in '92. Obviously you just copied the citation from Fleming HQ. I just looked it up in the AJC, and the exact quotation is: "Dr. Broun, who said he was 'pro-choice' two years ago, now thinks that life begins at conception and abortion should be restricted unless the mother's life is in clear danger." Thus, the latest Dr. Broun is on record with a pro-choice position is in '90, which does post-date his accepting Christ. I don't know why he had that position in '90, but obviously the Lord led him away from that to be on the side of life. The same thing happened with Zell Miller. Noteworthy is the fact that Georgia Right to Life endorsed Dr. Broun and not Fleming. They could have chosen to remain neutral but they did not.
o You malign Dr. Broun for running for political office previously. In contrast, I would view that as a burning desire to serve others. Clearly Dr. Broun is not the establishment candidate, and he wants to bring change to Washington. He's not afraid to stand up for what he believes in, even if the vote can be misrepresented.
We need a physician and not a trial lawyer because Washington needs common-sense change. What's the most common occupation of Congressmen? Lawyer. Who writes the laws? Special interest lawyers. We need someone with the courage to stand up to the wasteful spending and the growth in government.
Mark Taylor and Roy Barnes are also UGA Law grads too, so I hope my positions didn't scare you away from the school. I would love to endorse another Law Dawg, and I certainly agree with Rep. Fleming's positions on most issues, but Dr. Broun is simply the better candidate, and he has proven himself in the time he's been in office.
Regarding liberal/conservative Christian groups, many Protestant churches are divided into both liberal and conservative wings. For example, the Presbyterian Church USA is liberal, and the Presbyterian Church in America is conservative. Some denominations are generally liberal (i.e., the Episcopal Church), but there congregations that are still relatively conservative. Among Baptists, the Southern Baptist Convention is generally conservative, and the American Baptist Churches and Cooperative Baptist Fellowship are liberal.
The CBF are what I'd call the "Jimmy Carter" Baptists; Carter's church in Plains left the SBC and joined the CBF, and Carter himself has left the SBC for the CBF. CBF churches typically hold liberal positions on political and theological issues. I'm not saying that they aren't Christians, and I'm not saying that they aren't doing good, but their positions are more socially and economically liberal. But, at the recent CBF General Assembly, a speaker claimed that Jesus was not God, so the CBF does embrace some non-Christian viewpoints.
Personally, it concerns me greatly that Rep. Fleming would take a leadership position in such an organization, which was formed as a reaction to the conservative resurgence in the SBC.
Maybe Lord of t he Rings, but not the Ag Bill or the budget;
"This is actually supported by Broun's statement that he doesn't read every bill that crosses his desk."
Boy, I hate to jump into such a fine pissing contest at a late date. Don't let my little interjection throw anyone off, please.
I'm not sure what the "this" is that is supported by Broun's statement (that old bugaboo, the vague reference don't you know), but admitting that you as a legislator do not read every bill that comes across your desk is scarcely news. It has been my privilege to know several legislators at all levels of government, and except maybe for Carl Jordan, all of them admit that they don't read every bill that crosses his or her desk. At the state and federal levels, such a feat is impossible if the legislator is going to legislate.
Any sitting member of Congress who claims that he or she reads every bill is a liar, and anyone who aspires to this position and aspires to this goal is grossly mis-informed about the magnitude of such a project.
I'm not sure that I would keep making it a major campaign point that Dr. Broun is honest enough to admit the obvious.
I think Jesus might vote "none of the above".
Some would say Christ held a liberal view of Christian theology. He lovingly witnessed to prostitutes, tax collectors and other assorted “unclean”, held women in very high esteem throughout his ministry. He spoke the truth about God’s message of love while so many before him used the scriptures to wrongly condemn and control.
Some conservatives believe they have a sort of monopoly on faith which is not even remotely true. If you actually read the bible will see primacy of helping the poor, mercy to those on the margins of society and a resounding message of sharing the faith with everyone. The concept of using supposed faith as some sort of prideful divider in a political offensive is disgusting and the antithesis of the teachings of Christ.
True Christians have both the test and unfortunate situation of being surrounded with self loving God haters on one side and prideful, intolerant bigots who walk among us is sheep’s clothing on the other side.
I agree with the spirit of
I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, although we would probably disagree on certain points of scripture. And certainly conservative churches need to do more to help the poor and downtrodden and to reach the lost where they are with the Gospel message.
But the CBF, and Barry Fleming's leadership in the organization, concerns me greatly. This is an organization whose convention featured a speaker who claimed "Jesus wasn't God and He didn't consider Himself to be the Savior of the world [and] also said self-realization is the way of salvation, the Gospel of John cannot be taken at face value as an accurate account of Jesus' life, Mark is a 'Gnostic gospel' and Daniel 'fibbed a lot' since that book's prophesies were actually written after the events about which it prophesied." See http://bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=28366.
Other things to forget because lots of time has passed ...
The Holocaust: Come on that was more than 60 years ago.
Segregation: Don't need to remember that nasty little piece of American history.
Moore's Ford: Read Sunday's centerpiece in this paper.
Rwandan genocide: That was way back in '94.
Enron scandal: Who cares what happened back in 2001?
9/11: Speaking of things that happened in 2001.
All these things shaped the way we think today, whether you realize it or not.
So just because things happened a long time ago doesn't mean they should be written off or discounted. Especially when it comes to a person's character. We are who we are because of the decisions we have made. His choices not to pay child support or to lie to get a loan are just as significant as his finding God. ALL those choices made him who he is today — good or bad.
Just wondering ...
Why does it matter if Fleming is a Christian or not? We live in a country where we are free to practice (or not to practice for that matter) any religion we want. I think I actually would be more inclined to vote for a candidate who didn't wear his religion like a badge for all the world to see. A person's faith should be private. And if like you say "Evangelicals stress a personal relationship with Christ," why don't they just keep it that way and stop shoving it down everyone else's throats.
In an ideal world
..it shouldn't matter one bit. There's nothing to say that a Muslim or a Catholic can't do just as good a job as a Methodist. The things that should matter in this election are issues. However, the "religious nutcases" that tend to make up large swaths of this district don't really vote on issues.
Because I'm a religious nutcase
You're entitled to your own opinion. But you should rethink it. If a person's faith is private but sincerely held, it will undoubtedly influence his or her decisions.
Suppose that I were an agnostic and I voted only for candidates advocating progressive causes. I would be looking for a candidate who would support abortion rights, teh gayz, Toyota Priuses, lattes, etc. In 2000, I probably would have voted for Zell Miller for Senate. But I would soon be regretting that decision because Sen. Miller began to vote based upon his conscience and religious convictions.
As I already mentioned, a major tenet of evangelical Christianity is sharing one's faith. If you can't understand how someone can sincerely believe in evangelical Christianity, then you'll just have to believe that I'm a nutcase, and I'll have to believe you're a lost person. The difference is that I'll still care for your soul, but you'll just hate me.
But influencing one's
But influencing one's decisions and wearing your religion on your sleeve are two totally different things.
I went to a Catholic church for 15 years, but as I got older realized that it wasn't for me. There are various reasons as to why I stopped going, but a major one was that I couldn't take the hypocrisy of Catholicism. And I would rather be a "lost person" than a hypocrite. For the record, I believe in God. It's organized religion I have an issue with. If other people want to go to church weekly and sing songs about God and all that, more power to them. It's just not for me ... I'd rather be singing along to a rock song. Wait does that mean I am going to hell, too? Because I listen to rock 'n' roll and read the Harry Potter books?
And you still didn't answer my original question. Why does it matter if Fleming is a Christian or not?
To me, it matters whether
To me, it matters whether Fleming is a Christian in the same way as it matters to some people whether a politician is a Democrat or a Republican. Evangelical Christianity comes with a set of values that would influence positions on many issues. If a non-Christian shared the same issue positions, I'd vote for him or her. And no, evangelical Christianity and the GOP agenda are NOT coextensive. Rep. Fleming professes to be a Christian, and were Dr. Broun not running, I'd probably be supporting Fleming for Congress. But unlike Dr. Broun, Rep. Fleming would be a perfect establishment GOP candidate.
Not all Christians are hypocrites, and as Dr. Broun says, it's more about a relationship than a religion. No one thinks you're "going to hell" for listening to rock music or reading Harry Potter. It's not our position to judge what's in your heart.
And actually, I am a former Catholic too. But I turned into an evangelical.
Really??
No one thinks you're "going to hell" for listening to rock music or reading Harry Potter
Really?? About 9 million Internet sites disagree with you ... here are a few.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Hellivision/harry_po...
http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/2006/04/27/harry-potter-the-hogwarts...
http://lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html
http://www.chick.com/bc/2001/harrypotter.asp
http://www.pawcreek.org/articles_pcm/end_times/harry_potter_antichrist.h...
This religious debate is
This religious debate is getting OT, but any evangelical knows "how to get to heaven," and there's no test for musical or literary taste. Accepting Christ is paramount. The sites you cited are aimed at Christian brothers and the debate is whether H. Potter leads youth away from Christ, not whether H. Potter will condemn someone who has already rejected Christ.
Accepting Christ is
Accepting Christ is paramount to getting into heaven? So all Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddists, etc. are going to hell? Nice to know that a God who is supposed to love all human beings is so exclusive.
And that’s why you don’t
And that’s why you don’t understand Christianity. Our faith does not say we will never do anything wrong ever again, it says we will strive to emulate the life of Christ while knowing that our acceptance of Christ and attempts to follow his teachings are the redemption from sin. Christian faith is a life long struggle of trying to reconcile the ways of Christ with the way of man.
God never said you cannot listen to Rock and Roll or read Harry Potter. Instead of getting your knowledge of the Bible from street preachers and assorted nutjobs, you should actually read the Bible. And if you have, you should read again because there are obviously some parts you’re missing.
If we all followed Christ, we would not be at war. Everyone would have the food, shelter and aide they need. Instead of chasing wealth, we might actually do something useful like be good parents. We would take care of this planet. We would treat those we now exclude the way that Christ treated the tax collector and leper, who were equally reviled in accident times. Christ gave one commandment that, if followed, would make all the other commandments come into alignment. He said “Love each other”.
Faith is important to politics because many Christians want to know the politicians decision making process and who he or she turns to for guidance. You may not agree, but a lot of us prefer our politicians to pray for answers to big issues rather than seeking the consul of Bono or George Clooney.
Of the people who do good, speak out and get involved (and yes, I put you in this group), I see them divide into two groups. There is one group who feels led by God, seeks to do God’s will, confesses their short comings to God, begs God’s guidance and strength and sees Gods love in everyone and everything.
Then there is the other group. They just want to be God.